An Interview with Professor
Stanisław Obirek
The following interview took place at the Cafe Braga in the Mokotów
district of Warsaw, Poland on 24th June 2009.
Me: “Religious variety, indifference
in post-communist Poland, is there any massive difference, do you think?”
Professor
Obirek: “In the communist time, religion was perceived as
a private sphere, more than this, to be part of the Catholic Church or any
religious institutions was perceived as a political decision against the
communist regime, which was willing to eliminate religion as such from the
public sphere, so it was consciously or not unconsciously a political decision:
“I want to be a part of institutionalised religion as a protest against the
communist regime”, it was for the adults I think, for most, as me for example,
people born in the communist time, it was a kind of schizophrenic situation,
because, officially, religion was not existing in the public sphere, in media,
organisations, whatever you consider the public presence, but, in (sic) the
same time, it was a part of social reality, I mean families, even in the
schools, we have (sic), although not in the school buildings, we have (sic)
religious catechesis in the church, so I would say this made a huge difference,
when the end of the communist time came, religion suddenly became not only
possible but even desirable, because who won, I mean the Solidarity movement
with Wałęsa and most of the leaders, they were fervent Catholics or fervent
believers, so to become religious became a kind of, being with the winners,
being against communism which was the bad evil system”.
“Now, in pre-communist
(sic) times, a lot of Protestant choices were available, the Baptist Church and
Methodist Church were in Poland, do you think the government was happy to see
these Protestant Churches come in to kind of disrupt the Catholic Church in any
way?”
“Well,
yes and no, because it shows that religion could be perceived as not credible,
because there are many Churches, and it was one more evidence that it’s hard to
find the truth in Christianity, because there were many Christian Churches, but
I think
that the most important thing is again connected with different religions,
different Churches, a tendency or attempt to play differences against religion
as such, but I would say altogether, it was not successful, most Churches
preserved autonomy and independence from political interference”.
“Now, the
post-communist period, what it seems just on the face of it, and what I’ve
heard from some Mormons I’ve interviewed, the Catholic Church is like the
institutional norm here now, it’s the massive macro-body to attack, you know
like the Communist Party was in pre-communist (sic) times”
“Yeah”.
“And now the young
people, the Catholic Church is what the Communist Party used to be, would you
agree with this, that it’s viewed as a a universal body that’s an institution?”
“In
a way, it is perceived sociologically as such and a term which was used by this
Pope person, Jerzy Urban, who said that the former red communists were
substituted by black, by priests, it means that the most powerful organisation
which play (sic) a decisive role in the public sphere is the Catholic Church,
more or less like in Iran, the clergy, Ayatollah and all these people who are
really controlling politicians, I think, sociologically speaking, it (sic) is
something in this, that in terms of symbolic authority, even control on the
most important element of Polish identity is controlled by the Church, and the
Church is seen or perceived itself as the main reservoir of moral authority,
but I think that the picture should be a bit different, seen more nuanced, that
what particularly young people afraid of (sic) is not so much the political
influence, but the criteria of being moral or being virtuous decided by the
Church (sic), so this is a kind of discomfort, this is moral teaching like
connected with contraceptives, all connected with sexuality is seen as the
domain of the Church, I think this is for many young people, a kind of
discomfort, they’re not happy with this”.
“Right, how about these
factors, like greater freedom of access to information, multiculturalism coming
in, definitely Warsaw, post-communist era, do you think this is a great factor
that this ideology from the West, I mean from what I can see, it’s not
fully-blown political correctness, but there does seem to be an influence of
Poles travelling, coming back”
“I
think that a symbol of this multiculturalism is Polish sociologist, Jerzy
Zubrzycki, who passed away a few weeks ago in Canberra, Australia, he’s
considered the father of Australian multiculturalism and he was a friend of
Wojtyła, and member of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, I think what he was
saying Poland have (sic) to be prepared for the new period, this mono-cultural
identity which was during communist times was kind of obvious, he said: “We, as
all the world which is facing globalisation, we have to be prepared for this”,
and I think that so-called open Catholics as me, we see this as not threat, but
as a normal evolution of the present situation, of course, this new situation
is polarising a little bit the Polish society, on the one hand, you have the
most of the Catholic clergy with the Bishops, with the so-called Catholic media
like Radio Maria, and Nasz dziennik, even TV Trwam, see multiculturalism
as a real danger for Polish identity, but I think this time of polarisation is
the normal one, and it will be the second time when it will be part of the
normal picture in which we’re living as in West (sic) Europe”.
“How about the idea,
pre-2nd World War Poland was extremely multicultural, not just Jewish
people, but Armenians, Belarusians, Slavs, Germans, all kinds of people, do you
think that Poland feels an underlying need for a return to multiculturalism
after having this strongly monocultural, post-2nd World War ...”
“I
can speak for myself, and definitely so, I see the multiculturalism or return
to plural religious, cultural map of Poland as something vitally healthy, and I
see this as a normal and very challenging but extremely exciting perspective,
and I think that particularly 16th or 17th century, the
Poland of many nations, as you mentioned, all these nations and religions, and
ethnic groups which were part of Polish variety, Jews and all possible
denominations of Christian Churches were all together, built this beautiful
picture of multi-ethnic Poland, and I think that we need this, because, if not,
every monocultural nation attempted (sic) to identify the nation with its own
group, I mean the threat of nationalistic ideology is clear in post-communist
Europe particularly, you can see this in Hungary, in Germany, East Germany particularly,
and
also Poland, so the presence of other groups where you can confront them, not
only in the media, but on a daily life experience is very healthier (sic)”.
“Right, do you not see
any dangerous possibilities, looking at the West now, it goes under the name of
political correctness, zealous multiculturalism, when you look at Western
Europe, do you see the potential for the destruction of religion in this
country?”
“Of
course, I think that every ideology, even multiculturalism, which could be
non-tolerant, is threatening, I mean every ideology have (sic) the potential
for destruction, and, for the moment, I don’t see this in Poland, because this
tendency are (sic) too weak, probably not clearly articulated, we will see in
the future, but I think that the substance, the powerful presence of
institutional form of religion as Catholicism is a real challenge for this kind
of uncritical political correctness, and I hope because of this strength and
power of institutional religion, this new form of totalitarian ideology will
not prevail here, definitely not, I am personally for many different ideologies
which have to respect one other (sic) so multiculturalism yes, but not exclusivistic (sic)
multiculturalism, you have to also respect groups that are not happy with multiculturalism,
yes”.
“Now, I’ve interviewed
a lot of Mormons, and I’ve been interested in the variety of Catholic
backgrounds they come from, none come from strong Catholic backgrounds, what
you kind of get is a mixture of people who come from mixed religious
backgrounds, the father could’ve been Catholic, the mother Protestant, or that
the family didn’t have a strong religious faith, and the furthest you get is
people who classify themselves as average Catholics, would you agree these are
the kinds of social groups within Catholicism who are there to be grabbed?”
“As
far as I know, Polish Catholicism is not exceptional, so the big number of
followers of one institutionalised religion follow the normal sociological
principle that you have different degree (sic) of identification, myself, being
many years a priest, although not a parish priest, but still I was in touch
with the institution, in the core of this institution, I think the main problem
of Polish Catholicism, it sounds perhaps strange, but I can give you many evidences
(sic) this is true, the priests are too busy, it means that they don’t have
time and even patient (sic) to deal case by case, I mean with people who are
troubled with, you know, it could be a normal process of crisis for teenagers,
sometimes, the people need a time for fighting for their own identity, it’s not
enough to go every Sunday to hear Mass, and a few times a year, to participate
in intensive religious experiences like retreat or this kind of thing, so these
people who were probably trying to get closer to the priest, and who were
unable to come closer, found these zealous apostle missionaries on the street,
like Mormons, who not only have time, but even have interest for (sic) personal
convictions, persuasions, so it was, for many people, the first time that
somebody asked them how they feel about Jesus, how they feel about life, the
first time that they have a possibility to speak out, to have a partner who
listen (sic), and this is the first step, sometimes, and life crisis, many
situations, illness or death of someone or whatever could be a good occasion to
look around, and to found (sic) another Church, and Mormons, like the good
possibility to deepen your faith, and this is a general problem with the
Catholic Church, where you address not God directly, but the mediators, so in
Poland particularly, you speak with people, they rarely articulate problems
concerning Jesus or God, but more frequently priests or Bishops, so it means
that in other religions like Buddhism, for example, for many people, even
Judaism which is discovered by some people with Jewish background or even not,
because they have this, the first time in their life, occasion to go through
religious experience as such, interiorisation
of your religious questions, so I will agree with this presumption that the
conversions to new religion, in your case which you study, the group of new
Mormons with a Catholic background is connected with the Polish average Catholicism,
yes, definitely so”.
“I mean, a common thing
they say is that in the Catholic Church, they’re not required to do anything,
there’s little commitment, what they’re after is commitment”.
“As
far as you’re not outstanding in your external life, I mean that you go in
villages, Sunday, to the church, or you don’t work on Sunday or on the Catholic
Christian feast days, nothing happen (sic) to you, so nobody’s really
interested, it would be strange if you start to ask: “What do you think about
God, about theology?”, yes, it’s the problem of a certain anonymity, nobody
really ask (sic) you what you believe, because it’s obvious, that it’s a social
factor”.
“Yeah, another factor
which more directly concerns religious experience, there’s a deep desire to have
a personal relationship with the Scriptures, to get to know the Bible, not just
bits of the New Testament, but the Old Testament, to see how it connects, and
these Mormons, they appear to be disenchanted with the Catholic Church because
it doesn’t teach them the Scriptures, Mormonism, it doesn’t just teach them the
Bible, it teaches them three other books of Scripture from Joseph Smith, so do
you think they desire this scriptural experience, some people, and they’re not
getting it from the Catholic Church?”
“Well,
this is true that the Catholic Church, as an institution, realised this huge
gap or lack in their own religious education, and Vatican II was a huge cry to
rediscover the Bible, as both parts, not only the New Testament, but also the
Hebrew Bible, the Council Fathers encouraged Catholics to come back to the
sources, to the Bible, but unfortunately in traditional Catholic countries like
Ireland, Poland, or Spain, it became a voice of the desert, it wasn’t
translated into daily experience, so although the new identity which
post-Council Catholics got, I mean community able to read and comment, and to
be at home with the Holy Scriptures is still a far goal not reached by, so in
this sense, although it is 40 years after the Council, I think that again we
come back to the average Catholic in Poland, the idea of build (sic) your
identity on the Holy Scriptures, like in Mormonism and the Book of Mormon, and
they don’t reject the Bible, so you can read both, right, although in this
special perspective, so it could be appealing, I mean it is in Polish, we say:
‘It’s the sin of neglecting your own tradition’, and now it come (sic) to my
mind that the same problem you see with people who are attracted to Far East
(sic) religions, Buddhism, Hinduism etc., where you have a very important
component of meditation, of the deep inner experience of contemplation, we have
this tradition in Catholicism, but it is forgotten”.
“Yeah, St. John of the
Cross”
“Not
only”.
“St. Theresa of Avila”
“And
Jesuits’ tradition, you know, Spiritual Exercises, but it’s like
neglected”.
“You see, from my years
of experience with the Society of St. Pius X, this is one of the organisations
which doesn’t neglect St. John of the Cross, St. Theresa of Avila, and as long
as it’s the Douay-Rheims or Latin Vulgate version of the Bible, these are the
only Catholics I know who read the Bible regularly”
“Yeah”.
“I remember one guy, he
said the one thing which is wrong with the Society of St. Pius X, it’s too
strict on morals, he said if Catholic society kept the Tridentine, old Latin
Mass, the aesthetics, great contemplatives, and gave them to the people who are
a bit loose on morals, don’t push the sexuality nuances, he said 50-60% of
Catholics would still be practising worldwide, he said what Vatican II under
Pope John Paul II, what it’s done wrong, it’s done the opposite, it’s gone very
strict on morality, but there’s no sign of the old Latin Mass, there’s no St.
John of the Cross, no Scholasticism, no Thomas Aquinas, does that sound reasonable
that this loss of Catholic identity has been done in this kind of jigsaw, do
you think?”
“Possibly,
what is good in Catholicism today for me is the variety, you have Catholic
Church in plural, and the national or new languages in the liturgy contributed
to this, being more identified with your culture and language, and not with the
universal Church, this is my personal opinion about John Paul II and even Paul
VI and now Benedict XVI that these post-Conciliar Popes were less interested as
one who started the dialogue with the world, John XXIII, they’re not interested
in the world, in the variety of cultures, and what we call the postmodern
world, the post-ideological, post-political world, what is a source of huge
confusion for many, they are more interested in proposing a very strict and
very strong Catholic identity, shaped not in dialogue with the world, but with
rejection of the world, I think this is a source of strength on the one hand,
there are many people at home with this strong moral teaching, but for other
people like me this is the problem, I don’t feel at home totally in this
polarising preaching, I’m really at home with the teaching of John XXIII who
was opening his arms and said: “Well, I’m interested in what the world really
feel (sic) about myself and my institution etc.”, so it is paradox, because
many people like you mentioned the Society of Pius X and many conservative
Catholics are saying that the post-Conciliar Church lost its identity, because
of being too much open (sic), my perception is the opposite, that the Church is
really afraid of the world, you know, this concept of the culture of death
which was coined by John-Paul II is predominant, and the same Benedict XVI,
he’s refusing the world as such, so I don’t see that the Church is too far in
dialogue, the opposite”.
“Yeah, a lot of the
Mormons have, they’ve not explicitly, but the way I’ve inferred is that their
disenchantment with the Catholic Church, some of it is predictable moral-type
stuff, they don’t want to tell their sins to a priest at confession, they have
an aversion to that, and the other side is, there’s a loss of enchantment,
magical reality, there’s no Gregorian Chant, no St. John of the Cross to read,
no Thomas Aquinas for the lucid philosophy, but they go to the Mormons, and
they get three extra books of Scripture, and they go in a temple, which has
rituals which are as complicated as the Catholic Church, and more mysterious,
because only the worthy can go there, so I mean, would you agree that maybe
there has been this loss of enchantment with the Catholic Church, the loss of
striving for the transcendent through beauty and not just beauty, like you
said, the ascetic, reading about the Benedictines, about the Carthusians, you
know?”
“You
see in this, people try to, even to imitate this kind of personal attachment to
Holy Scriptures, to Tradition, but this became more a question of I would say
individual choice, it’s not the mass experience, you don’t see so many people
doing this, but it’s privatisation of religion, it’s what sociologists of
religion are saying, but at the same time, I would say interiorisation, so I
see this as a positive, and the same connected with what you mentioned with
this great Scholastic Tradition, Thomas Aquinas, and these mystic writers like
John of the Cross or Theresa of Avila, all this you discover on your own, so
we’ll see, I think, on (sic) the beginning, Christianity was also the phenomena
of few, as our conversation, I mean, you don’t can have
(sic)
this kind of deep
conversation with everyone, only people who are really making questions about
their identity, they are interested in this, the most are saying: “Well, let us
speak about”, you know, “culture, politics, economy, crisis, global warming,
this is our problem, but religion is passé, it is not more relevant”, so this
is the dominant problem I think, and the real crisis that religion became not
relevant for average people, I see this with my students in Łódź, I need time to convince them that
religion is relevant, also in terms of our future as the human kind, but for
most of them not”
“I mean, I think that
some people, if you bring up the subject with them, you can see the relief on
their face, they thought that nobody else would bring up the subject, and I
think that that amount of people is higher than what most people would think,
you know, they’re a little bit embarrassed acknowledging it to other people, I
mean, I’ve not done research on it, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was
25-30% of people who would be open to a serious discussion like this, and after
a few weeks, they would get conversant to it”
“Yeah,
probably what is important in this 25 or even 30% of people, even more if you
take the US, is the way how you approach the problem, if it’s not aggressive
way, it’s open, it’s seen as an existential problem, and not as, you know, you
have to declare how it is, it’s like, it have (sic) to grow up from your inner,
and this yeah, I’m optimistic in this sense, if you are approaching religious
questions in this open and tolerant way, the people recognise this is really
very important dimension of their lives, yeah”.
“And what would
possibly be most interesting to you, with the Mormons, there’s a surprising
aspect of interreligious experience, there’s still a small attachment to the
Catholic Church with some of the converts, some of it through predictable ways
like going to family baptisms, first holy communions, they still have contact
with the Catholic Church through them means, and the second one is more
interesting, one or two on a hot summer’s day, like going into a Catholic
Church to experience the stillness, you know, and the third point is that young
women seem to be the subculture within the Mormons who absolutely hate the
Catholic Church, hate the concept of transubstantiation, a few have said it
makes them want to be sick, whereas it’s the men who still have a little
interreligious connection with the Catholic Church, I mean do you have any
comments about this kind of phenomena?”
“Not directly, I would
say that it’s like with some atheists, you have peaceful, not aggressive
atheists, and you have very aggressive people like Richard Dawkins or this kind
of formation were you feel a deep need to fight against religion, and I think
first of all, this is a very individual question, and connected I’m quite sure
with personal experiences, with some traumas, with some negative experiences, if
the transition from one religion to another was peaceful, was like falling in
love, you don’t reject your past, you just think with gratitude that you
discover something more beautiful, you can see that what was previous was a
preparation for this, and you’re grateful that many things as (sic) Catholic
Church prepared you for, for this new experience like Mormon Church, so I would
say it’s, again in this peaceful atmosphere of conversation, you can discover
this, that sometimes the people who hate Catholicism or some basic concepts
like transubstantiation, or concept of redemption, or concept of cross etc.,
probably they go (sic) through some traumatic experience, and they refuse this
deeply, so they have to go in like psychological or psychiatric treatment to
heal these wounds, and yes, I would say this, it helps me a lot to understand
the people, when I’m in touch with some agnostics or atheists who reject
religion as such, I said (sic): “Tell me why?”, and usually they’re coming back
from some traumatic experience when they were teenagers with priests, parents,
and they want to walk on their own legs, and for me, religion is not actually
in conflict with my freedom as a human being, I embrace religion, because it is
my free act, not because somebody forced me to do this, so I would say that
probably you have a variety of types, and what I like very much, and this is
more and more well-known in the, even in Catholic Tradition, is this
multi-layered religious belonging, which is a very new concept formulated
explicitly by Peter Phan,
a Catholic theologian with an Asian background, and Raimon Panikkar, also
European but at the same time Asian, because his father was from India and
mother from Spain, so you have these people who are from different backgrounds,
first of all, they live this peacefully, belonging to different tradition, and they see this as mutual enrichment and
dialogue, and if you have these kinds of leaders, as I see both of them and
many others, I see the perspective of belonging to different tradition as not
exclusive, not threatening, but the opposite, that you could be a Mormon who
look (sic) with sympathy to Catholicism, you can be Catholic seeing with
sympathy to Mormons and so on, so why not to see (sic) all your converts as
examples of this?”
